#6: A Father's Anguish Turns to Laughter
Part 2 of a
Two-Episode Podcast
What happens when a child’s pain triggers your own? What do you do? You’re told to “be an adult.” You want to be an adult. But inside, you’re hurting in the way the child before you is hurting. You are that age again — an infant, a one-year-old, a two-year-old.
“I would just sit there and have this dread and couldn’t wait til my mom got home.”
In this concluding episode of A Father’s Anguish, guest Jeff Friesen comes up with an approach that allows both parent and child to express their feelings.
Note: This podcast was recorded on February 8, 2020.
Listen here:
Transcript
On top of both Dao and I being tired and on top of Ongsa being fussy and tired and melting down sometimes, it's like, I really just want to hide out. You know—
Like you wanted to back then.
Yeah. Yeah.
So the difference right now is you're a father—
Um-hum.
—and not only, and this is really, this is huge. It's, it's, you're not only a father for Ongsa. You're, you're a father for this little guy. He's still, it's still there. That wound is still there. What is your responsibility?
I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it. Well, well I mean, I mean one, for Ongsa my responsibility is like I said, and also just do what I needed to do to stop, to avoid blowing up.
What about for this little guy?
But for the little guy [sighs] . . .
What's your responsibility?
I don't know, but it would be nice to do the same thing that I want to do for Ongsa.
And what is that?
Just be there and let him have his feelings and, and be present and not blow up, um, to, to be not judging him. Just giving him the space to feel what he needs to feel. Let it out, in a safe way.
Go ahead right now. That feeling is still there. That feeling is there today. Go ahead.
That's, but like the pain gets overwhelming, you know? And I can't, to the point where I, I feel like I can't let myself feel it. But—
Well, you can right now. You have license. You have license right this moment. You have it. There's no other responsibility.
Ah, what comes to me is acceptance. Like, [sighs] like if I accept that that was my childhood and like, not necessarily that it was good, but like it feels like if I can accept that, that's what happened and this is who I am from it, like, it feels easier to feel that pain.
Welcome to this episode of The Last Healer, a podcast dedicated to helping us return to our original nature.
With us today is Dr. Stuart Bernstein, working with long-time student Jeff Friesen.
Dr. Bernstein (04:07):
In J.R.R. Tolkien's classic, The Lord of the Rings, wizard gone evil Saruman, breeds an army for one purpose, that being to destroy men.
Over the course of our material-scientific civilization, man has, for the most part, been bred and has bred himself to be a soldier, noble sacrifice for the cause. Now, as we struggle to awaken from that endless nightmare, we begin to confront the imprint of our legacy.
Pain holds the key to our struggle to become free. We must be willing to allow our pain in, to adhere to it, to dive into it.
Why is this necessary? Because pain is a feeling, and feelings are an essential aspect of a human being's spiritual capacity. Therein resides the light.
Could it be there was a time in human experience before soldiers existed? before desire ruled? before sacrifice was noble?
Men, women, boys, girls. All human beings. What an extraordinary name—human being. What a profound challenge to embody this name.
In this, the concluding segment of "A Father's Anguish," Jeff Friesen concerns himself with accessing his pain, then adhering to the pain while it illuminates the way back to himself and out of separation.
Jeff Friesen (06:09):
I grew up in an environment like what Ongsa was experiencing, um, at daycare.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
For, for years.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
And I would, I would, I would just sit there and have this dread and couldn't wait til my mom got home. [laughter] You know? Just like save me, you know?
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
And it was always better when she, when she got home. So, yeah, I remember that dread.
Dr.B (7:06):
Where was the dread?
JF:
Not dread of her coming home—
Dr.B:
No.
JF:
—of just waiting until she came home, you know?
Dr.B:
And what was catalyzing these feelings before she came home? What was going on?
JF:
Uh, my brother was, um, more on the emotionally abusive side than physically abusive, but—
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
—there was some of that also. Um, my stepdad was not safe at all. He was, um, he came home drunk and he drank more.
Dr.B:
Wow. Okay.
JF:
When he got home pretty much every day. So I just wanted to avoid him, uh, to be outside of his, um, view. Um, yeah.
Dr.B:
So that's very much in you. That's there. It's there right now.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
You were young.
JF:
Um, yeah, um, that was up until I was about 15.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
But most of that time—
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
—most of my life. Yeah. Up until 15. Maybe 16. I guess 16.
Dr.B (08:54):
Yeah. Are you feeling that feeling right now?
JF:
I can.
Dr.B:
Go ahead.
JF:
Yeah, right now I don't feel angry about it. I have, [laughs] it's—
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
—it's there, but it, I just feel that dread. It's like, yeah, there was a lot of frustration and anger, like that came up. But it was, yeah, that, that dread and wanting to just kind of hide out.
Dr.B (09:41):
So that feeling is, has accompanied you from, from your childhood?
JF:
Yeah, I do that at night. Even now because like when in, in the evenings before Ongsa goes to bed, Dao's there and Ongsa's there, but Ongsa is hard, to, right now at least she's tired. She gets fussy. It's hectic. The uh, the, the kitchen is like a disaster. Like the house is super messy. She, you know, it's, it's hard to—
Dr.B:
Which isn't, which hasn't been your way.
JF:
No.
Dr.B:
That is, that is not your way.
JF:
No.
Dr.B:
From what I've seen. [laughs]
JF:
Yeah. And I, you know, I don't mind, like I, you know, I don't mind cleaning it all up or whatever, but being in the middle of it and trying to get stuff done, make dinner and make food for tomorrow and go get the, take her bath, like all that is really hectic, and—
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
—on top of both Dao and I being tired and on top of Ongsa being fussy and tired and melting down sometimes, it's like, I really just want to hide out. You know—
Dr.B:
Like you wanted to back then.
JF:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr.B (11:14):
So the difference right now is you're a father—
JF:
Um-hum.
Dr.B:
—and not only, and this is really, this is huge. It's, it's, you're not only a father for Ongsa. You're, you're a father for this little guy. He's still, it's still there. That wound is still there. What is your responsibility?
JF:
I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it. Well, well I mean, I mean one, for Ongsa my responsibility is like I said, and also just do what I needed to do to stop, to avoid blowing up.
Dr.B (12:00):
What about for this little guy?
JF:
But for [laughs] the little guy [sighs] . . .
Dr.B:
What's your responsibility?
JF:
I don't know, but it would be nice to do the same thing that I want to do for Ongsa.
Dr.B:
And what is that?
JF:
Just be there and let him have his feelings and, and be present and not blow up, um, to, to be not judging him. Just giving him the space to feel what he needs to feel. Let it out, in a safe way.
Dr.B (12:52):
Go ahead right now. That feeling is still there. That feeling is there today. Go ahead.
JF:
That's, but like the pain gets overwhelming, you know? And I can't, to the point where I, I feel like I can't let myself feel it. But—
Dr.B:
Well, you can right now. You have license. You have license right this moment. You have it. There's no other responsibility.
JF:
Ah, what comes to me is acceptance. Like, [sighs] like if I accept that that was my childhood and like, not necessarily that it was good, but like it feels like if I can accept that, that's what happened and this is who I am from it, like, it feels easier to feel that pain.
Dr.B:
Okay.
JF:
Like if I don't accept it—
Dr.B:
You're fighting it.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
And you're going to have some emotion is going to take you from it cause you're, you're pushing it away.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
So, yes—
JF:
And there's nothing else to do but accept it, right? It's not like—
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
I don't accept that, that has to be Ongsa's future, right?
Dr.B:
Right.
JF:
But I do kinda have to accept that that was my past, right? [laughs].
Dr.B:
Yeah, and it's, it's employing it. The acceptance—
JF:
Right.
Dr.B:
—is employing your wound.
JF:
Right.
Dr.B (15:12):
This is the, and this is the deal. This is acceptance. Letting it, letting it in full bore. Having it. Be with it. See your way with it right now. That acceptance of, "Yeah, it's here. This is my wound." But it's, the difference is employing it. It's using it. It's letting yourself, yes. Full acceptance and seeing where that leads.
JF:
Maybe, [laughs] maybe, um, I'll just get on the floor with Ongsa and, start crying and—
Dr.B:
Maybe you will [laughs].
JF:
—kicking the floor or whatever [laugher]—
JF:
And—
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
—she would, she—
Dr.B:
She'd laugh.
JF:
—she would get a kick out of that. Yeah. She would like that.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
Um, she'd just like, look at me, be like, what are you doing?
Dr.B:
Oh, this is my little guy. Here's what he, this is what he—
JF:
Yeah, he's right there with you.
Dr.B:
Yeah. [laughter] He's expressing it right beside you. You're together in this. [laughs]
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B (16:13):
How's that feel?
JF:
Good. [laughter] I might be—
Dr.B:
Instead of—yeah. [laughter]
JF:
Yeah. I, yeah, that's . . .
Dr.B:
Seriously. I could see that. Just lying down right beside her.
JF:
That feels good.
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
And I feel like she would, we would stay connected. That's the—
Dr.B:
Yes!
JF:
That's it.
Dr.B:
Yes!
JF:
Instead of, instead of me blowing up where she's just like, I mean I, when I did kick the wall, I was in the other room from her, but it was still probably loud and scary and me yelling like, but you know, she just stood there and just stared at me, quiet, and then started up—
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
—crying again, right? Like that is — feels like separation. That doesn't feel like—
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
—we're connected. But if I'm with her letting her feel that pain, cuz I shut her up basically.
Dr.B:
Yeah, you can't—-
JF:
Right, by doing that.
Dr.B:
—Yeah, instead of having — You do, you shut her up instead of having that frustration that you can't fix it because shutting her up isn't, that's not the healing. You're trying to fix it—
JF:
Right.
Dr.B:
—in the same manner that the anger would come up--
JF:
Right.
Dr.B (17:45):
--with the pain. Your joining her, you're saying, "I have this pain too. It's here. It's the little guy." And you're giving, you the father are giving both of you—Ongsa and your little guy—license to express.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
That's, that, because that's all there is.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
Have your pain kids. Go ahead, have your pain. And she sees that she's not alone.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
And it's in the, in, my goodness, yeah, you're not, you're not forging separation.
JF:
Right. Right. Yeah.
Dr.B:
Above all.
JF:
We're connecting.
Dr.B:
You are.
JF:
Just the opposite—we're connected.
Dr.B (18:24):
You are. And so instead of you having to think, I have to be this, you know, some idea—it's all an idea of who you need to be—you're letting this little guy do what he needs to do because it's for the healing. And what I'm getting in the deepest sense from this is no, it's not, it's not permanent. It is not permanent for either of you if you allow him to express what he needs to express. And at the same moment she has freedom too.
JF:
Yeah. I don't know about whether this is permanent, but I do know that, um, what I want is her to have the capacity to handle that stress and the stress that she's feeling now and to be able to express it and to be able to let it out and to feel safe. I know that like that's what will heal anything that, you know, like this, that she's got.
Dr.B:
Absolutely.
JF:
It will certainly help me heal me. When, one thing that happened—
Dr.B (19:49):
And this is, this is key because the parent does come first.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
You've got to address, you've got to address that pain. Otherwise it's going to turn on you. This is going to turn—
JF:
Um-hum.
Dr.B:
—into, it aberrates and—
JF:
What do you mean?
Dr.B:
Into anger.
JF:
Right. Yeah.
Dr.B (20:09):
That emotion. If you are allowing this little guy to have his pain, that really comes first because then you're not in reaction any longer. You're saying, "Okay, you need to have your pain," and at the very, instantaneously she knows she's okay because you're down on the floor beside her and there's no, it's not contested. What she's up to is not being contested.
JF:
Right. Right.
Dr.B:
You joined in.
JF:
I'm encouraging her, "Let it go. [laughter] Let it go."
Dr.B:
You are, and Dao walks in. "Oh, hi. How's everybody?" [laughter] I think she could only laugh.
JF:
Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. And it ,and it, and it tells Ongsa that feeling pain is okay.
Dr.B:
Yes!
JF:
It doesn't need to go into anger. It doesn't need to go into judgment. It can just, we can just feel that.
Dr.B (21:09):
Yeah. And this is all you, you don't know how to fix it, nor should you, that's not appropriate. What you're doing is accepting. It's acceptance. Oh, she's in pain. Well, guess who else is? And so what an opportunity. What a remarkable opportunity.
JF:
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I can, I can feel that, but it feels really good. And you know, I mean, she, she is doing better since taking her out of that room, but she still has plenty of, um, little meltdowns, and maybe I can, maybe I can practice with her.
Dr.B:
Absolutely.
JF:
[laughs] I won't tell Dao. I'll just start doing it and see what she does. She'll, she'll like it. Do you know what's so sweet is even though, this, Dao, gets hard, this is really hard for her, um, when I lose my temper like that, um, but after she fed her and after Ongsa was sort of back and not, not crying, um, I was, I was like, I had some white gaff tape that I was like taping up the wall cuz it's a pretty big hole. And uh, she, uh, Ongsa, I wanted to help. [laughter] So, so Dao and Ongsa and I were like tearing off pieces and putting it on the wall and Ongsa tore off little tiny pieces and put it on. And she really, she'd like look at me and go, uh? [laughter] Shaking her head yes. Like "this right?" Like, you know, and it just,—
Dr.B (23:05):
This is your wound daddy. We're bandaging it.
JF:
Exactly, right? Instead of them staying angry at me and judging me and them blowing up, they were, they, they, that's the type of thing that helps me, right?
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
It's not like I ever want to do this, but like they were helping me keep it out of shame and embarrassment and anger.
Dr.B:
Absolutely.
JF:
Right? And that's not where I want to go. And even the talking about it now, and I know this is recorded, right? There's both shame and embarrassment, but I know that that's not what helps me.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
Right? You know what, what helps me is talking about it and getting at and staying with that pain. So that's—
Dr.B:
That's the ticket.
JF:
—that feels good.
Dr.B (24:04):
That's it. And then there will be no legacy.
JF:
Right. Right. Yeah. And Ongsa will have the capacity to handle pain for herself. Pain if she has kids.
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
You know?
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
Yeah. So thank you for—
Dr.B:
Thank you.
JF:
—for helping me . . .
Dr.B:
And even the judgment about how come, how did I do this? How did I subject her to the situation at that daycare? How could I have done this? Hold off.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
Wait. Not so simple.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
It's opportunity. This is what I'm sensing is opportunity.
JF:
Mmm.
Dr.B:
Does that seem right?
JF:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr.B (25:02):
How's that feeling?
JF:
Well, I mean, I would never put her in a situation like that again, but ,knowingly—
Dr.B:
No, your feeling inside.
JF:
Oh, about the opportunity?
Dr.B:
No. Um, the nausea and the pain.
JF:
It's, it's, everything feels like softer.
Dr.B:
Yeah. Yeah.
JF:
Yeah. Um, it feels like relief. It feels, I'm kind of excited to go try it [laughter]—
Dr.B:
Try it out.
JF:
—with Ongsa.
Dr.B:
She'll love it. [laughter]
JF:
Shoot, yeah. Yeah, my throat is like less tight.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
Like I can breathe easier.
Dr.B:
Ahhh.
(26:40)
I keep being reminded of the image of the mother and her baby on an airplane, and suddenly the oxygen masks drop down. Who does the mother put the mask on first? The baby or herself?
JF:
Um-hum. The mom. I, I mean—
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
But it, it, it almost runs counter on, intellectually—
JF:
Instinctually, too.
Dr.B:
Yeah, yeah,
JF:
Right?
Dr.B:
Yeah, and yet, so you are obliged to get down on that floor.
JF:
Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a good, um, like thing to visualize.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
I can do that.
Dr.B:
Yeah. And, and the wound is feeling softer.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
You're using it.
JF:
Yeah, you know, but yeah, and I, [sighs] it's, but it's historically been rare that I have that time of pain instead of just going directly to anger.
Dr.B:
Right.
JF:
You know?
Dr.B (28:12):
Right, right. But it's, it has been changing, yes?
JF:
Slowly.
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
And it's because I'm, I really don't want to grow up with Ongsa's, Ongsa there, you know? And so like this time it was just staying with it, but I, it, it went beyond—
Dr.B:
It did.
JF:
—what I could do.
Dr.B:
It's going to. It's going to. [laughter] At this point. It, only to get you down on that floor.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
And I'm recalling how before you became a dad, your primary, you were, you were most concerned about that anger and about blowing up.
JF:
Um-hum.
Dr.B:
And here it is.
JF:
Um-hum.
Dr.B (29:02):
And it's here because no, it hasn't healed. It's healing.
JF:
Right. It hasn't, it didn't magically go away once I had a baby.
Dr.B:
No, it did not. And you know what? Ongsa knew that.
JF:
Mmm.
Dr.B:
She was previous.
JF:
Um-hum.
Dr.B:
She accepted you. She still wanted you to be her father. [laughter].
JF:
Okay.
Dr.B:
Does that sound right?
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B (29:30):
You have a great smile right now. [laughter].
JF:
Cuz I'm picturing her. I mean I, she's amazing. I love being around her.
Dr.B:
Um-hum. This is within your capacity. Other things are being tricky. Other things are being really challenging. Okay. Who, who can we put her, who can we have her be with that will be just right?
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
But here's the issue for the healing, and what she can gain from it too.
JF:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I need this. I want this.
Dr.B:
Yeah. Anything else?
JF:
No, that feels good.
Dr.B:
Good.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
Yeah. Well, thank you very much.
JF:
Thank you. Thank you for, yeah just encouraging me to stay with the pain—
Dr.B:
Yeah.
JF:
—cuz it's—
Dr.B:
It's the ticket.
JF:
Yeah.
Dr.B:
It's the ticket.
JF:
Right.
Dr.B:
And now you have, you have, the time has come. You have the opportunity.
JF:
Right. Thank you, Ongsa. Thank you, Dao.
Dr.B:
Yes.
JF:
Thank you, Stuart.
Dr.B:
Yes. [laughter] Thank you, Jeff. [laughter].
JF:
Okay.